Can You Lie and Still Be Good? Exploring the Idea That Two Things Can Be True

Can you lie… and still be a good person?
This episode starts simple, but it doesn’t stay that way.
Maria and Jeanine dig into a question that gets real, fast: can two things be true at once?
They talk about what it means to trust someone, why lies hit so personally, and whether intent really matters. Along the way, they explore everything from “harmless” lies to the ones that completely change how you see someone.
At one point, Maria shares something that hits deep: when someone lies, it feels like “why don’t you feel like I’m a person you can tell the truth to?”
And Jeanine offers a different lens, reminding us that not all lies come from a bad place. Sometimes, they come from protection, fear, or even kindness.
They also get into:
The difference between lying and intention
Why some people see things in black and white, and others don’t
What trust really means in relationships
And how curiosity might change everything
It’s thoughtful, a little messy, and very real, just like their conversations always are.
If you’ve ever questioned someone’s honesty or your own reaction to it, this one will stick with you.
Tune in and see where you land.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Brainscot and Gold. We're happy to have you here with us. Uh joining another another road trip that we will certainly take together are different places and detours. We're happy to have you again. I like the idea of a road trip. I do too.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We should go in a real road. Yes, we totally should. Where would we go? I definitely want to go someplace warm. I'm serious. I would like to maybe go along like um the lower half, like I-40 takes you through like Louisiana, Tex Arcana, Texas. Um, Texarcana is not the place. Arkansas.

unknown 0:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Did you see the confusion on my face by chance? I was trying to pretend like I knew what you were saying.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Well, Tex Arcana is a place like in between Okay, but Arkansas, Texas, and then New Mexico. Like I think that'd be kind of cool. Okay. That's too long, though. That's too long.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Uh would we we'd get sick of each other?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Yeah. Okay. But would you use your blinkers?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Absolutely use my blinkers. Always, always. Yes, yes. Okay. All right. So for today, uh, we wanted to follow up because on a previous episode, we kind of landed somewhere. We ended in a place that we thought we could explore a little bit more. And that is, can two things be true at once? And we can approach this topic from a lot of different angles. You and I have spoken about this a little bit in different contexts. So where do you want to begin with this?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Um, so I said as we wrapped another episode, something like spoiler alert, yes, because in some cases, obviously, I believe um wholeheartedly, but that that's true. And so I want to start there simply because I want to hearken back. But I think let's give some examples of what we mean when we say, can two things be true at once? And something I said to you is can you be in a room full of people and still feel lonely? And the answer to that is for sure, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. But then there's deeper ones about lying and still being a good person and you know, all of all of that. And we can go into that more. And then there's those more simplistic ones about, you know, if I wear fake eyelashes and a push-up bra and I have a ton of makeup on, you know, am I a different person or am I trying to be somebody I'm not? You know, so is that the two things? And so I think there's a lot of interesting places.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

One of the uh a while back you and I had started talking about this as well. And one of the things that came up in that conversation was also as another example, uh, you know, things are not always as they seem. And can it be true that, you know, just taking again very materialistic things as an example. Um, I remember growing up, my dad would take me uh uh past these homes that were, they were mansions. And I was in such awe at those houses. And it became kind of really part of what I really wanted for my life and so forth. And now as I've gotten older and I realize what comes with that in a lot of cases, or in some other cases, I've talked to people who go into those houses to do work or for other reasons and have said literally, a lot of those houses people barely have furniture because they can't afford it. Right. So, you know, in talking, we can look at that from both perspectives, you know, um, about what can you what can you believe? Can can two things be true in that? And there's just like a lot, a lot to explore.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

So look at that before you get off the, and I mean we might go back to it. I think about those houses, and of course, this is not everybody. I mean, some of the houses are very well appointed and have great furniture and da da da. But they're the ones that don't, the ones that is it, you know, the superficial lifestyle that they want to show on the surface versus the truth, or is it both in that I aspire to this, so I'm gonna live this way until I achieve this. Like, you know what I mean? Like those different op those different things.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Well, and there's also the other side to it, which I also know plenty of of folks who are on this side of it, which is they live well below their means. And so from the outside, they appear to not have a lot going on, but they actually are very wealthy and so on and so forth. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Is that stuff not important to them? Like, you know, what's the reason for that? But yes, yeah, yeah. Okay. So where do you want to where do you want to dig first? Well find the bodies.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Where are you digging? So the juiciest one for me, I hate to use that terminology, but you know what it is. I don't. Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

I would think it's about the can you lie and be a good person? Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's what I would think.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah. Or can you lie and still be trustworthy? I'd even go so far as to say that. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Okay. Yeah. So I want you to start because I want to follow your lead on this and not I can go into some deep, deep holes, and I don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Well, I think this one is gonna send us quite quite quickly into that hole. We can go. I was not necessarily expecting this one, but um so, you know, I tend to be a person who sees a lot of different sides of a story. I so much so that it's my own detriment sometimes because I can have a hard time deciphering what my own opinion is sometimes because I can see both sides so so easily. In other cases, I'm way more black and white. And I think as I've gotten older, I've gotten way more cynical and way less trusting of people in general. And I don't know exactly what caused it or when it began, except for the fact that uh I have a really hard time if someone has lied to me believing anything they say. Yeah. And that's yeah, and that might be harsh. And believing anything they say might be a little harsh, but it's always like in the back of my mind. You know. If they told me a lie about this, what else are they lying about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that question of can someone lie and also be trustworthy? Yeah. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 6:56

You know what I think. However, um, I don't agree with that. I think that there are a number of reasons why people lie, and there's a sliding scale of things that people lie about. And so both of those things intersect somewhere on this grid of that's awful to that's nothing. And so I I think we've also talked about to me, intention is such a big deal. And so if the intent to harm or the intent to, you know, whether the harm is to me or even to themselves, then I tend to react a little bit more harshly to it. But for the most part, like we we've talked about, I think from the storytelling, entertainment comedy standpoint, embellishment and you know, telling something that is wider, longer, bigger, fatter, smaller just for the sake of the story. I I mean, I don't see anything wrong with it. And it also would not, you know, lead me down the, are they telling me the truth about this other thing? And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't even second guess the fact that they might not be truthful in other things. It wouldn't even come into my mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

I want to know what that's like. I'm noticing a theme.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah. Just and I will tell you that it feels like a simple-minded theme on my part. Like Maria is so rich and complex and layered. And Janine is just so simple. She's like a golden retriever. I don't really care about much. Although she is judgmental. Seriously, she cares about waterfalling a lot. I care about waterfalls a lot. It really would not. And it does not. I mean, it happens now. I'm a fully formed human and I have interact with people all the time. So no, it doesn't. You know.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

I genuinely admire. I do admire that simplicity. I know we're laughing, but I really do admire that because I overanalyze things too much, especially in this realm. So when you talk about In this realm. Well, in this this this topic.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Okay. Um because it doesn't matter. Say the wrong word. No, I mean it still works. So listen. I thought you were living on another plane. And so in this bit too.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

We we have talked about this outside of the podcast. So I am well aware of your feelings on it. I didn't, we I don't think we expected to necessarily go into this today as deeply as we as we already are, but um you use the word intent. And I think that's really important. And I like to keep the word intent front of mind in my daily life, generally speaking. And you said intent to harm. Is there an intent to harm? My argument to what you're saying is anytime someone is telling a lie, there is an intent to deceive. And deceit is harmful. I think that's a judgment call. I I need more examples.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

So, well, the the one that comes to mind like so clearly for me is comedy. You know, they are being deceitful in some cases. You know, I told you last night I was talking about um Leanne Morgan and how she calls her husband Chuck Morgan. That's for comedic effect. But she tells everybody, oh, I call him Chuck Morgan all the time. No, she doesn't. You can't tell me that she doesn't go honey, hun, sugar. At home, she's like, hey, Chuck Morgan, will you take the laundry out and put it, you know what I mean? Like, whatever. So for comedic effect, she is saying, Well, Chuck Morgan and I. Well, okay, great. And it is funny. I love when she does that. Well, that is deceitful. She's not telling me a truth. But am I sitting here going, she is a lion sack, a piece of like what is who does she think I am? Like, I'm not falling for that crap. Like, no. But I think it's a sliding scale.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Performance, though. That is a couple of things.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Well, that's a good example.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

That is a performance. Of course it is. And it's you go in knowing that. Yes, it's expected in that environment that this person's not gonna necessarily be telling the truth. They're gonna be making shit up. They're gonna be not telling me.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Okay. Yeah. I've caught a non-performative example. Okay. Do you believe in Santa? Did you tell your child that Santa was real?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yes. And I will tell you, and this makes me such a prude, and I see that. Believe me, I see that. I hated it.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

And so when you figured it out, were you like, oh, thank God we can actually talk freely now?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I felt relief. There was a little bit of sadness because that meant he was growing up. And obviously, I love the magic in his eyes and everything. But yes, when I pretended that there was a Santa, I felt like I am lying through my teeth to my child, and that is not okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

I'm gonna clap right now. We're gonna end this right now. But seriously, I know it makes me such a prude. It doesn't make you a prude because uh crude is just no, does not make you a prude. It is an interesting, I want to say odd. It is interesting. However, do you then think you're a big fat liar because you believed in the ma or you wanted him to believe in the magic? You want so do you not believe anything that you're saying to him in the future? So now you now you have license to lie constantly because you did the one lie and kept up with it for years and years? No. Okay, so then why is there a double standard? You still did it, you still lied to him. Does it make you a bad person?

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Well, that's what we're trying to explore here.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Great. So it was the intent behind it. Yeah. Your intention was for good. You wanted to preserve the magic, you wanted him to have the experience. And so you went along with the lie. And we all know, some of us know that Santa is not real. But the other thing that I would say about Santa, without going down that's not safe for children's ears, by the way. We'll put something on here, disclaimer. It's it represented something else, right? So that, you know, could be a good example, could be a bad example, but you know, I'm obviously pushing the point on a lie. And that's a lie that so many people, you know, tell and perpetuate and you know, media, all the stuff. But there's other little lies. And so I've got another possible example. And it's this is maybe an ethics conversation, but it's still a lie. And I've given you this example before. So I had this in my ethics class in college and it has stayed with me for X number of years. So if you are the the child of an elderly parent with Alzheimer's, and the other parent passed, and it's let's just say your father passed, your mother is alive, and you go to see your mom, and she's like, Where's your father? And he's passed, but she doesn't remember he's passed. And so you tell mom, Dad dad passed, and she mourns his loss, and then the next day, same thing, and the next day, the next day. Do you continue to tell her that he passed, knowing she's gonna forget and have to mourn him all over again? Or do you just not tell her he's in the restroom because she's gonna forget? So, what what is the right thing to do? You're lying when you tell him, tell her that he's in the bathroom or he's at dinner or he's playing golf, whatever. You're lying. Is that an okay lie to tell or not? And I remember like we were in table teams and we were talking about it, and people were staunchly, you can't lie, and she's gonna forget that she was upset and all of the kind of stuff. And so I would tell her the truth. Well, I was not a proponent of truth in that because it would break my heart to break her heart every single day, right? And so to me, that's to the intention. Yeah. My intention is not to harm and it's to protect. And so, from a protection standpoint, yeah, no, I wouldn't. So it's a dilemma. But at the end of the day, let's just say you were in that situation or your significant other was, and he chose to tell the lie every day to his mother. Would you then think, oh, he's lying to me all the time because he's lying to her?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

That's hard. That's tough. It is. It is so tough. It is. Yeah, because I actually can see, I can definitely see your side to that. And I can see the other side as well. I really can, which is what is the point in continuing to break her heart? Right. And continuing to make her grieve. And I mean, she may or may not remember that, of course, but she is in the moment. Yeah. And right. That I can see there's a protection piece to it in that situation. I want to get to the point where it doesn't, it's not an issue. It's not a concern, you know, of like, okay, you've told this one little white lie. That means that you can't be trusted at all. Um, because I I don't discriminate on that for anybody.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Right. Like, you know. And so you see, again, I'm you, I'll put myself in this. So you see me telling my mom, you know, dad is playing golf. Yeah. Oh, okay. And you see me doing that. Do you come away from that experience, then going, wow, Janine had no problem lying to her mom. Yeah. I would.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Now, I'm saying that from the angle of assuming I'm coming away from that experience, not having the context that you just shared with me ahead of time. Right. And I probably would not have been able to see it in the moment. So, you know, having the context that I do now, I might not feel that way. But generally speaking, yeah, I would absolutely come away from that. Like, wow, she very easily lied to her mother. And so, how many lies has she told me? Right, you know? Right. And so, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

It is, it is one of those things where I think a certain amount of, I mean, again, for me, I said it was really clear that intention like plays a huge role in it. But I also think there's a a bit of discernment because you and I have talked through some other examples, and there's some really simple, you know, people, men who wear lifts in their shoes that you can't see. And then so you go on a date with them and they are, I don't know, I talk about dating a lot. Yeah. But you go out with somebody and they are your same height or taller, and then you go to another experience where they don't have, so maybe they were in sneakers or something, and you're like, wait, yeah, you were taller. Yeah. So what else are they? Are they stuffing their package? Like, what else are they being deceitful about? Right. That could be important to some people. Yeah. Height is really important to me because I'm tall. And so whatever. How like where is that line? I know. I was willing to ask you that. I don't think that that person was being deceitful because they were trying to get one over on me. That was a statement about themselves and their own insecurity in their height or whatever. And so the discernment that I'm talking about comes in with considering why they, so the intent, considering why they decided to wear lifts. Were they that uncomfortable? You know, whatever. And so that's important to me. I don't want to take things at face value. I want to go deeper. And so you saying if you didn't have the context in me lying to my mom and came away going, I should have just lied to her really easily, without going up to me or questioning me later and going, Hey, your dad's dead, isn't he? Why did you tell your mom that and not give me the opportunity to go, we do this every day. And every day she mourns. And so I just I'm trying to spare her that hurt. You know, then you hear it. And so that's the part for me that I would be really pissed at you to not give me that opportunity. Yeah. And, you know, to assume the worst about me instead of thinking there could be something else. And so that is something that I think I do really well. When somebody does something, I don't immediately go, this asshole. How dare they? Instead, I think, why would they do that?

unknown 19:31

What happened?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

So being more curious about the reason. Being more curious. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, as you were talking, one of the things that occurred to me I hadn't realized before is when someone lies to me, it feels so personal in the sense of I would like to believe that I am a per I want to be seen as a person that others can be themselves around. Okay. And others can just tell me or show me their whole selves and not have to worry about putting on a face or telling a story or embellishing or whatever it is. So when I'm lied to, it feels like why why do you not feel like I'm a person that you can tell the truth to?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Okay. And like, what have I done to make you feel like you cannot tell me the truth? Does it depend on the lie?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Or they're all lies. I mean, if if it's not true, then it's a lie.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Or is is there a scale of what would be I feel like I have gotten to this place where if it's not true, it's a lie. Okay. I didn't always used to be this way. I don't know why this happened. I really don't. I I don't, I've become so black and white. And I want to be very clear. I'm not pretending that I've never lied. I mean, you brought up like Santa. I mean, there of course. I mean, we've all, we've all, you know, it's not like I'm perfect, but but, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Let me, I'm gonna test the edges of this. I'm just really curious. Yeah. So if you go into a restaurant and they bring you your burger, the burger is meh, it's not that great. And the waiter comes over, how'd you like your burger? And you go, Oh, it's fine. No, it's good. Because it's like you know, it's not that important, you're not gonna send it back, whatever. So it was good. Yeah. And they walk away. Is that a lie? Did you just tell a lie? Yes. And if I did that, but I do it. I absolutely do that. Right. Yeah. So now let's flip it. I'm eating the same burger, I don't like it at all. The waiter comes over and I'm like, yeah, no, it's good. Thanks. And they leave. Are you going? She just lied to them. What is she lying to me about? Right. I'm trying to see is a lie, a lie, a lie. I don't know. And so I do think that there's some some edges there that maybe it's not all. And and is it because you know me? I don't know. If a stranger that you were just meeting for the first time said, this burger is disgusting and then did nothing about it. Waiter comes over, says, How's your burger? Oh, it's good. And then walked away. Yeah. Would you be like, this person is a liar? Right. I still wouldn't. I still wouldn't think this person is a liar. They're saving face. There's no reason to tell that guy. He's not gonna do anything about it. He doesn't care. You didn't want to send it back. Like, so what, like whatever. I don't have a conversation with the guy. That's usually why sometimes I lie.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Well, I would say that's true for me when I say it's fine. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Right. I mean, they didn't go, it's the best burger I've ever had. Oh my God. My compliments to the chef. Right. Right. Now, that to me is like ridiculous. Like, why would you do that? But if you just because you don't have a conversation about something that is so unimportant. Yeah. And so that's why I keep saying it's a sliding scale. Is it important? Is it like what's the impact? What's the intent? What's the this? There's so many variables that go into it that it's not black and white. It just for me, like I'm not saying you should feel Maria, you should feel differently. I mean, that's not what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Actually, in this case, I'm asking you to help me feel differently because I don't like how I feel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

That requires a couch.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Help me be better with lying.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

I'm offering a class. 1999. I'm your girl. So yeah, I don't maybe what we'll do is we'll create, I will draw a grid for you and put the variables and then I would love that. Actually, if you're I don't know if you're being serious, but I would love that. I mean, I do have like listen, it's not drawn out in my head. Yeah. But if I were to visualize it because you were pressing on the issue, I do think about it as a grid. And one of those things is importance of the issue, impact. Like I can see, and then you just plot the this is a no-go zone. If it falls in this area, yeah, I'm gonna be mad. I'm gonna be mad that somebody's lying to me. The other thing that we talked about last night is when it's a child, all bets are off. Your child owes you the truth. Yeah. You know, unless, of course, they made something for you for your birthday and they don't want you to know yet. Like there's again sliding scale cases, but they owe you the truth because the harm then is typically on them. So they've put themselves in a position that they shouldn't be in. They've gone somewhere they shouldn't go, they've done something they shouldn't do. Like that's a completely different, you know. We're not talking, we're talking about adults who make adult choices. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

So I wanted to be real clear about that.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah. That that is an important differentiator for sure. That was helpful for me because I immediately went to my son. And, you know, how do we how do we do this? But uh so yes, I would love to see your charts. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Um and if I make one, I will also post it on our Facebook group page so that they can see it.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Perfect. Yes, yes. Here are acceptable lies and not No, I'm not gonna make a list.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

It'll be a little ratings chart of how you can determine if this is something you should be bad at or what it is. This is a framework, a lying framework.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

It's a black and white versus gray framework.

unknown 25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

No, I genuinely, I I really want to hear not only your thoughts, but if there's anyone else who has thoughts about this that are contrary to my own, I do want to hear those opinions because it shows up for me almost daily where I'm questioning, like, hmm. You know? Yes. And it just causes this like strife that's that is, I hope, unnecessary.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Right. Well, so the other thing that we talked about, which I think was the flip side, uh, I'm not gonna like put other people in the story. Like, I only give my examples or your examples. But the other person does, like I've noticed this person when they tell an untruth, it's typically because of protection for themselves. They are afraid of, and I don't mean like physically afraid, maybe it is physical, I don't know, afraid of what the other person that they're lying to is going to do or say if they tell the truth. And so their own, they've developed this mechanism over time is to tell them kind of what they think they want to hear in order to avoid the conflict or avoid the, you know, whatever the situation is gonna be. And one of the things for me, while I find that I don't want to say sad, you know, it it hurts the fact that they have to tell lies in order to protect themselves. Um, but I get why they do it. And that would be another reason that I find it acceptable. That I find lying acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Okay. Can I ask, can I ask you a question? Um Did you say no? Okay, let me rephrase. I'm gonna ask you a question. There we go. Uh so we started this out by saying, can someone lie? Can someone lie and also be a good person? And I understand from what you're saying that generally speaking, you feel the answer is yes. Yes. When does the answer become no?

SPEAKER_02 27:24

When they cross the line of intention. Give me an example. If their intent is to harm. So um I'm grateful to say that I don't have a lot of these examples in my life. Okay. So I'm drawing from non-lived experience. But when somebody cheats on you and proclaims, not only proclaims their fidelity, but also then puts it on you, becomes um suspicious of gaslighting because they're doing something and so they're putting it on you, right? Yeah. So that to me, that lie, I'm not saying that cheating is good at any point in time, but had they had this indiscretion and come to me and said, I did something. And whatever, we might still break up, we might still all the things, but I would still think they were a good person. Like, yeah, they f'd up, but they effed up. And we go on our own ways, we did it, whatever. However, had they lied about it and tried to hide it from me and then made me feel like I did something, that's when it's a no-go. Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm. But if they were honest with me, I still would be mad. I still would be all the things. We'd probably still not be together. However, I would not question them being a good person because I do think it happens. I think people make bad choices. They're in bad mo situations that they shouldn't have been in to begin with. But shit happens. You came to me, you said I did something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

So okay. Yeah, that's that's a big one. So that's kind of on the other side of that scale that we've been talking about.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

But it answers the question of are they still a good person? To me, yes, they are. It does not negate everything else that we were to each other, everything else I thought about this person. It does not negate it for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

So, so I just want to be clear though, what you're saying is they're still a good person if they have done that act and told you about it. But what we were saying is, are they still a good person if they've done it and lied to you about it? And your answer there was no. And they they become not a good person. That's right. They're a bad person.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm not that black and white. I never have been. Yeah. And so I probably would never go to they're a bad person. However, I could go, they're not a good person. You know what I mean? Or they're not a good person to me or for me. But it doesn't, like in every other aspect of their life, I don't know that it colors it for me. It wouldn't impact that. It would impact us and what we were. Okay. But no, it wouldn't. If they were my accountant, I'd probably still go to them as okay. They're still a good accountant. Okay. Okay. Especially if they're going to do it for free. Yeah. By the way, I'm not in a relationship with my accountant. She's a lovely person.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

I was gonna ask that. Okay, okay. It's accounting season. Yeah, I know. I know. Um, okay, so there, wow, we got into a big one. And the whole the way we got into this was can two things be true at once? And well, I'm curious.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

I want you to answer the same thing for you. In thinking about especially the example. I mean, I know it's a very extreme example. Yeah. So the person comes to you and says, I did this thing. Mm-hmm. You know, so again, you're mad, you're all things. Yeah. Are they now a bad person?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I actually think I agree with you, which is really interesting for me. Yeah, because again, it's coming back to that. They, I want to feel like someone feels they can tell me the truth. That is so important to me. Yeah. That someone sees me as that person. And so in that case, you know, they messed up as you said, but they owned it. At least respected me enough. I that might be a weird thing to say in this scenario, but to tell me the truth. And so I could get on board more so with the they're a good person who made a bad decision. Yeah. And and so yeah, it's interesting for me that I agree with you on this one. Um it's interesting to me as well. Yeah. Yeah. And so I for myself am going to explore, I think, a little bit more around the how important it is for me to feel like someone who can be told the truth. Yeah. Because that feels like a really big thing for me to feel like it's a good idea. It really does.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

It really does. Because it feels different than is that person a liar? Yeah. Instead, it's why are they lying to me? Right. I should be easy to tell the truth to. Right. But you don't have to lie to me. So years ago, this is when Tobin was a toddler. They lived in Florida. I was still in Greensboro. They came to visit. Tobin came to my office, and I had this tray, and he was probably, you know, five or six. I had this tray, and it had these shiny Christmas trees in it. Yeah. And they were glass trees. And I was on a call and I saw him take one of the trees and put it in his pocket. Okay. And then he and I went, and I didn't say anything. He and I went over to Chick-fil-A, and we were sitting there and they had a play place, and we were eating. And um, he was like, Are you gonna let me play in the playplace? And I said, I was thinking about it, but only good boys get to play in the play place. I may not have used these words, but this is the way I'm remembering it. And I said, Have you been a really good boy? And he was like, I have. And I said, Do you think stealing allows you to be a good boy? And you know, his little face. And he was like, I haven't stolen anything. And I said, Well, Angenine has a tray of shiny trees in her office, and one of them's missing. And he was like, What? I didn't take it, Angenine. So he really kept playing along. And I said, Honey, I saw you take it. If I looked in your pockets right now, would I find it? And he was like, And you know, his little blue eyes were huge. And I was like, baby, I saw you take it. You need to show me. So he puts it on the table and he was like, I'm really sorry. Can I still be a good boy? And I was like, honey, you have to know that anytime you ask Janine for Anthony for anything, I would give it to you. You don't take from Anthony. You ask for stuff and I'll give it to you. But then you don't lie about it. If you made a mistake, own up to it. And then I was like, Of course you can go play. Go play. You know, you're such a good boy. You're such a good boy. Anthony loves you so much. Do you think he remembers that? I don't, but I've actually mentioned it to him. Like, do you remember stealing that trait from me? Little shithead. That kind of thing. But you know, in that, like, did what did that color my no, he's a kid, like the whole kid gets out of it. Now, had an adult done that, and then you go through the exercise. Obviously, I don't know what the balance of you can't go on the play. I don't know what the balance is. Right. But, you know, to to say to me no, I did not do the thing. Yeah, there's part of me that, you know, wants to believe, like I said before, the curiosity. Why did they take that? Like, is it do you think you can get money for it? You need something, like, what do you need? But the same thing I said to him, like typically, if you ask me for something, if I can't make it happen, we're gonna solution together and whatever. And so your need for people to be truthful to you, my different need is similar, but let me help you. Like, if there's a reason you're gonna lie to me or steal from me or whatever, then help me understand that so I can figure out how to help you. Yes. My sister might think we're both bleeding hearts right now. I'm thinking I'm playing this, but I really do have a genuine heart for helping. And so I tend to believe the best until they show me the worst. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Which is a better way of thinking, I think. I don't know if it's right or wrong. I'm not saying right or wrong. I'm just saying from my angle, it's uh uh less stressful, I would call it. That's a less stressful way of thinking, which I like. And implemented.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

Cured. There we go. These are such great therapy sessions. Another one solved.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

You're so good at this.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Hey, for anybody who doesn't know, Janine is a coach. Well, I think about like one of our first episodes, and we said that the reason I want to do this is because I want an audience. Yes. Well, we've now just discovered the reason Maria's doing it is because she wants free therapy.

unknown 36:15

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

It's working out for both.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

But you know what? These conversations that we have. I mean, tell me if you think I'm wrong. These conversations that we have are the same conversations we would have, you know, over dinner or when we're traveling together in the hotel room in a program.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

We should bring dinner in here. Why don't we have dinner while we're having this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Because then we might show people our food while we're chewing.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

That's why.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

And then I would have to water floss. Oh gosh, this gets complicated. Okay, never mind. We can bring cocktails in. I'm all in on that.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

We'd have to have an Uber driver, but we could definitely or Kathy. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yes. Okay. But yeah, I mean. So what are uh so this has been a big one, but what are some other examples of things that we can talk about that are convenient? I want to go back to the lonely one, like being in a crowded room, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:07

So these two things, and I have that for sure. And I know you were like, yes. And so as much as we talk on this, and so obviously people see a different side of us, but people who know me really well know that I can and tend to be introverted. And so when I walk into a crowded room, either I'm looking for the people I know. I'm not the first one to go up to strangers and have a conversation. Um, weirdly, if I'm super, super uncomfortable, then I will because I need to do something to connect. But with that being said, uh there's been many times that I have been in a crowded room and just feel the loneliest I've ever felt. The face that you I'm talking about being super lonely and I'm bearing my soul and you are smiling to the point of you looked like you were gonna burst into laughter at me.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I'm sorry. It was not what you were saying. It's that when you talked about walking into a room and you just have to, you know, talk to someone, it uh it made me have this thought of, I just don't know what to do with my hands. And I couldn't stop it.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

So it's I mean, it was formative. I saw it. Like if you could have a thought bubble above your head, it would have been right there. Like that would be. What do I do with my hands? So I was thinking about that. Sorry, I apologize. It's fine. But or let's go back. So, yes, I mean, just the it's it's such an overwhelming to see all these people around you and still feel like you are an N of one. There's not another soul who gets you who, like whatever it is. That is an awful feeling.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Now, you recently went to a conference all by yourself with no one you knew going. What was that experience like for you? Did you feel that way in the conference?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

It I was definitely anxious leading up to it, to the point where I thought, I think I even said to you, if it wasn't going to be so beneficial, I would love to just cancel and just not go. Um, because you know, obviously I say things like, oh, I was young and stupid when I made the decision to come here. Yeah, yeah. But I knew it was something for our business that it was important to go. And once I got there, you know, pulling into the parking lot, walking into the conference center, seeing all these people, especially because many of them had been, this is like an annual event, many had been there before and and they'd created these relationships and whatever. And um, it was very uncomfortable. And I'm gonna say something that you hate when I say it, fake it till I make it. I had that, like, you know, put your shoulders back, pop your chest up, just walk in and whatever. And so I made a conscious decision to behave differently and to talk to people and to whatever. With that being said, I also, when I would go into one of the new sessions, so the way it was set up, you'd go into like four sessions every morning and then four sessions in the evening. When I would go into the new session, I would find a way to look unapproachable because I was tired. I didn't want to make small talk, I didn't want to do the things that we know are important to do. And yet I found myself doing them anyway. Because many of those others were not Janine, who's an introvert. They are flaming ease extroverts and want to talk to everybody around them, including the lamppost. Yeah. And so I found myself drawn into these conversations that were wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

You know, and so I'm so glad that I didn't, you know, get on my phone or pretend or, you know, oh, I just need to respond to this email or, you know, something that I could see myself normally doing.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

So is the feeling alone in a crowded room topic uh does that have to do with our inability to connect with others or or unwillingness to connect with others? What do you think leads to that?

SPEAKER_02 41:11

I can only say for me, no, it doesn't. And this is a really sensitive topic to me. So I'm in a skirt. I'm not gonna go too deep into it, but it is my insecurity about how I feel in my own body and skin. It is trying to be invisible in some cases because I've been a target before. And so if I can make myself invisible, then I can't be hurt. I can't be targeted. Okay. And so that really is it for me. So it's my own protection most of the times. Other times it really is just about my need for quiet. Right. So I do insulate myself in some respects. And I've gotten better. Yeah. When I say better, like I can cope with it more knowing I have to tell myself when this is over, you can go to your hotel room and nobody else is around, and you can regroup. So and you don't have to say yes to anything you don't want to say yes to. You know, you're a big girl now. You can do that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Remind yourself that you can make your own decisions. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

unknown 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

I mean What is it for you? I think it's feeling different than. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

And I Do you put yourself in that place though? Like, are you genuinely? And I say the same thing to myself, are you genuinely different? Or are you putting yourself like they're not like me?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

I just think it is a feeling that's not as conscious.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

And I think we've talked about this before, but I mean, I have very early memories of when that began in my life of feeling different than other kids. Um you know, there were things that I had to deal with that did make my ex my life experience different. Made me grow up quicker. Um and made me not uh relate as much, I guess you could say. And so I think that's just carried carried with me in some respects of like I just feel I guess I feel different. I I think it's less now than it was before. I think as I get older, I get more comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

But um that is the beauty of aging, I will say. Yeah I agree with that statement. I think the other thing is as far as the feeling different then, and I I could say I would feel similarly, but I would not be surprised if 90, well, maybe I'll go lower, 85% of the people that we speak to would also have a similar feeling. I agree. Right. And so there's 85% of people, so your room of 100 people, 85 of them feel different, but they either force themselves to show up differently. And so you just never know what's going on behind each person. And so having that, you know, forcing yourself to make that connection. Or whatever. Yes. I mean, there's really it's a strange and beautiful world that we live in. That all of us are walking around with all of these, like I'm just gonna call them issues or beliefs about other beliefs about ourselves, and we still get up every day. We make it happen. We make it happen. We do. But the aging piece is helpful because it softens some of those sharp edges. It does.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

It does. Yeah. That's one positive way of looking at it. Yes. For sure. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

So what are the other like examples that we were talking about as far as the two things at once? We talked about, you know, being lying and being a good p person. We talked about being alone in a room. I think that ethics one, you know, is a part of both or all. Um I think ethics is such a big part of everything that we talk about going on.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah. I would say, you know, and we we don't have time for this today because we really need to wrap up, but uh, I would say that I started touching a little bit on the uh perception of what you see materially with people. Oh, you know, it comes up with my son where, you know, he believes that someone is, you know, rich or whatever it is because they have X, Y, and Z. And, you know, I try to help him understand that what you see isn't necessarily the reality of things. And so I think that's part of the conversation here today as well. Yeah. That like two things can be true where they can appear to have it all together and behind the scenes they they are barely making it. You know, and I think that's so important for so many of us to remember. Um, because especially with social media and all of the pressures that we have on ourselves to be like the other, or it's it's really most often not like it seems.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Most often. And yes. I I had this person, I'm just thinking about it, like who used to work with me and always had like Louis Vuitton bags and just cutting edge. Her nails were always done, like just looked like she was living the good life. And I had never, I don't know why, maybe we just were never in the parking lot together. I'm not really sure. But one day we happened to be walking out at the same time, and she got into a car that had seen better days, but more importantly, had two donuts on it and then two tires. Okay. And my father, I grew up with a father who was a mechanic. And so I just remember like the next day going, Hey, do you need for me to take you to go get your car? And she's like, What do you mean? I said, I saw that you had donuts. I'm assuming like something happened. And she was like, Girl, I've been riding on it like that for years. I can't afford new tires. And I was like, But you're getting your nails done every week. And I mean every week, and you're carrying this leave from maybe it's a fake. Like all the stuff that I thought I knew about her in that very small instant went completely out the window. And so it's really interesting because some of it to me, it's where you place your value. Yep. Yep. You know, is it on the car that brings you to work every day, or is it on the stuff that people see about you? Yeah. I again, I'm not judging. I don't know what the answer is. I grew up very practical. And so my car is going to be taken care of before my nails are gonna be taken care of. I mean, I do my own nails, right? Because that's not where I place my value. It's not where I want to spend my money. Yeah. So it's just an interesting thing, what you're talking about with your son, having to you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. No. And so what you see isn't always what you get.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah, or what you should believe. We always believe that seeing is believing. And honestly, I feel like that's less and less true as we move forward. Um, when we talk about even AI and that sort of thing. But yes. Yeah, that's for another day. We have to wrap it up for today. So yes, indeed. So what do we get from this? Um, Maria needs to be better with liars. Um, Janine lies. All the time. All the time.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

For comedy, for comedic effect, and for ethics. Yeah. Of course. Do not hurt somebody's face. For comedic or ethical reasons. Those are the reasons, but all the time. So there you go. Okay. Come back next time for more lies. Judgments, lies. I'm a horrible, horrible human. Two things can be true, Janine.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Also a good human. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your honest opinions. They were helpful to me today in some way. Well, and I always appreciate what you share too. Well, thank you. So thank you all for joining us. Please uh like, subscribe, join the conversation at everybody.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

We do have a Facebook group page, and we have to be honest, we are not great at it. Um, we're learning, so we will do better. Um, if we talk about something, we're gonna try to post it. Um, but if you want to join us there, YouTube, obviously, wherever you listen, um, and email us at brainsgonebold at gmail.com. So we'd love to hear from you. Yes. Until next time.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Yes. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye.